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8:59 am
May 2, 2008
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Smoke
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So, we need to figure out a way to edumacate the new builders out there. We'll start with this thread as a place to discuss some issues, progress it to a page on the site, and probably add some signage out on the trails at some point.
The one thing that pisses off a builder more than any other thing is seeing unauthorized stunts and lines appear on a trail they've been putting hours of hard work into.
Probably most guys doing that sort of thing don't even realize that they're "trespassing" on someone elses work.
There's also a standards issue that goes along with any new builds, in that we need to start maintaining a higher level of building. So more solid building and avoiding nailing into live trees are some good things.
An "adopt-A-Trail" sort of program might be a way to show ownership of a trail to potential rogue builders.
Alright, there's some points to mull over.
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6:49 pm
May 4, 2008
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Andrew McIntosh
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ok, this has been getting to me a whole bunch….it's a bit of an old skool mentallity but I feel that it's important
Trail entrances and exits need to be kept somewhat on the D&L.
Postil has become a fucking eyesore….
I was always stoked on the natural, hardly noticable drops and dirt hits built a few years back by nato. Recently a new gap was built. Although it's functaional and all, (I won't comment on build quality) it screems look at this mtn bike trail here not to mention it looks like hell from the road. Now another ugly gap drop has appeared.
The lower shuttle of addiction is starting to look like the paintball mess down the road. If we expect to be taken seriously by the regional district, we should probably stop with the heaps of poorly built, 2x4 ridden structures that can been seen by every single person that drives up or down that road.
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7:39 pm
May 4, 2008
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GFSR
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Hahaha… I have already wrote the handbook on trail building (OK style). Above, Andrew is mentioning rule #2 from section 2.34 stating: "Never build stunts visible from the road". As well as rule #4 from section 2.40 stating: "If a stunt looks like crap then it is".
Unfortunately, I've only written my handbook on the inside of my head. Maybe I'll start making the transition to paper…..
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7:43 am
May 24, 2008
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gnarlyx
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Discuss the use of concrete on Gillard….to fix rocks in place (I assume to avoid erosion/movement) and to secure a rock drop in place.
Acceptable/unacceptable, and why…..
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11:16 am
May 24, 2008
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Andrew McIntosh
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I got no beef with that, as long as it looks good and is done right.
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8:22 pm
May 25, 2008
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GFSR
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I've used concete couple times. Works great for a launching pad off an uneven rock ledge.
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6:35 pm
November 6, 2008
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Digital
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Well, this thread is a bit old, but "no time like the present"… A few of us around Penticton are on a bit of a mission to install a mentality of "only build with natural items that one finds in the forest". Sure this ends up negating a lot of potentially cool ladders etc., but we feel that an entertaining, challenging, durable and aesthetically appealing trail can be created in this manner; one that rivals anything currently in the Okanagan. We’d like to see a whole lot more log rides, rock drops and the like sprouting up and a whole lot less dimension-lumber designs being erected in these parts.
Unless it’s on your own private-property or in a skills park, all the wooden structures seem to be doing is pissing off land stewards and making folks raise and eyebrow to said handiwork…
What say ye?
Andrew D.
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http://picasaweb.google.ca/digitalfrontiers
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11:20 am
November 7, 2008
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greymon
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There is a good thread about regressing trails back to the 'old school' type of construction here:
http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=90354
Don't get me wrong, I like the built stuff (Gillard, Smith, Powers etc), but I also like challenging natural lines with natural stunts. Time to get out and build.
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7:45 pm
November 7, 2008
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GFSR
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Digital said:
Well, this thread is a bit old, but “no time like the present”… A few of us around Penticton are on a bit of a mission to install a mentality of “only build with natural items that one finds in the forest”. Sure this ends up negating a lot of potentially cool ladders etc., but we feel that an entertaining, challenging, durable and aesthetically appealing trail can be created in this manner; one that rivals anything currently in the Okanagan. We’d like to see a whole lot more log rides, rock drops and the like sprouting up and a whole lot less dimension-lumber designs being erected in these parts.
Unless it’s on your own private-property or in a skills park, all the wooden structures seem to be doing is pissing off land stewards and making folks raise and eyebrow to said handiwork…
What say ye?
Andrew D.
hmmmm… ya I understand what you are getting at, Andrew. My stomach turns every time I see large stunts made of a mish mash of buidling materials. You acn always tell if the builder is a carpenter by trade – becuase their stunts look like they need to be covered up with drywall or stuco….
Trying to avoid ladder bridges is tough, especially if you are planning on building log rides. I personally always try to do all my framing out off logs. Unfortunately, from my experience, here in the Okanagan we are forced to use lumber for laddering. Trying to use natural materials for laddering always ends with a sketchy stunt.
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1:21 am
January 22, 2009
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Brian Hammond
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Ryan McKenna said:
Digital said:
Well, this thread is a bit old, but “no time like the present”… A few of us around Penticton are on a bit of a mission to install a mentality of “only build with natural items that one finds in the forest”. Sure this ends up negating a lot of potentially cool ladders etc., but we feel that an entertaining, challenging, durable and aesthetically appealing trail can be created in this manner; one that rivals anything currently in the Okanagan. We’d like to see a whole lot more log rides, rock drops and the like sprouting up and a whole lot less dimension-lumber designs being erected in these parts.
Unless it’s on your own private-property or in a skills park, all the wooden structures seem to be doing is pissing off land stewards and making folks raise and eyebrow to said handiwork…
What say ye?
Andrew D.
hmmmm… ya I understand what you are getting at, Andrew. My stomach turns every time I see large stunts made of a mish mash of buidling materials. You can always tell if the builder is a carpenter by trade – becuase their stunts look like they need to be covered up with drywall or stuco….
Trying to avoid ladder bridges is tough, especially if you are planning on building log rides. I personally always try to do all my framing out off logs. Unfortunately, from my experience, here in the Okanagan we are forced to use lumber for laddering. Trying to use natural materials for laddering always ends with a sketchy stunt.
Woooow, harsh. Just like any occupation or business there is good and bad. There is quality trades people, and there is lazy, sloppy unexperienced, un educated hack trades people out there. But too bad you put us all in one stereotypical category.
A good trades person, or journeyman trades person should be able to asses anny project at hand and do his homework to do the project properly. A true quality "carpenter" will not just take his building practices from residential framing and tke it to the bush and frame with a look and quality that "needs to be covered with drywall or stucco". A good trades person uses materials to suit the purpose and estetics of the area, and which will have longevity while not harming the environment. Flow, design, functianality is key too but that is another topic.
Anyways, I know you were not too serious anyways, and I am just typing killing time, I'm not really shook. :) piieeeecee
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7:39 pm
January 23, 2009
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GFSR
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Brian Hammond said:
A good trades person uses materials to suit the purpose and estetics of the area, and which will have longevity while not harming the environment. Flow, design, functianality is key too but that is another topic.
Brian! Well said. Good of you to join in the discussion. It's carpenters that haven't made this connection with the surrounding environment that ruin it for me. The ones that have made the connection are usually trail building masters and I only see them as such.
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1:04 am
January 31, 2009
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Brian Hammond
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Thx, its good to be here.
I am super stoked on any positive biking developments in any area … and with Kelowna being close to my area it is good to stay informed and involved, yay internet! hahaha.
But ya I totally get the purpose of this thread and setting a standard and such for building.
This could be managed with regulating. Which would mean enforcing … which would mean over seeing all the riding areas and supervising what people build and such. And if the club was monitoring the riding areas and had authority on said trails they could issue stop work orders and such where rider/builders are building features or modifying on existing trails with out permission. The greatest concern in my eyes is proserving and maintaining existing trails in the area. Sketchy stuff built on newly estblished trails is a whole extra issue… which is harder to regulate as they usually start as hidden "secret"rogue trails which later become public knowledge.
What the Vernon club is doing come Spring/summer 2009 is assigning trail bosses for individual areas of the club governed trails. Which in our case is only trails on prov park land.
And then these bosses can report to the boss or board and can stay on top of maintenance and un-authorized building with routine check ups, and reporting.
Maybe you guys are already doing this or something better .. I am not sure I just thought I would throw it out there.
Ride the Gnar
Brian H
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10:46 am
January 31, 2009
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gnarlyx
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This could be managed with regulating. Which would mean enforcing … which would mean over seeing all the riding areas and supervising what people build and such. And if the club was monitoring the riding areas and had authority on said trails they could issue stop work orders and such where rider/builders are building features or modifying on existing trails with out permission. The greatest concern in my eyes is proserving and maintaining existing trails in the area. Sketchy stuff built on newly estblished trails is a whole extra issue… which is harder to regulate as they usually start as hidden “secret”rogue trails which later become public knowledge.
Yep that's basically the deal in Kelowna. We're pretty close to getting to that position. All our riding areas have MTBco Trail Directors looking after the trails (either hands on or managing them), and all riders are connected enough that if anything rogue or sketch were to be built, it'd be dealt with appropriately. There's plenty of eyes and ears out there. Plus we're connected with other non-MTB trail orgs out there such as FOSS. It's fair to say that rogue trails are very unlikely to built in existing areas, such is the extent that MTBco is known as well as the actual trail builders themselves. And if 'crap' is built on existing trails, it will be destroyed and the rogues themselves “educated” not to waste their time. There's plenty of ways willing workers can help, i.e. through official trail days, adopting a trail (unless they aren't competent) or by volunteering to help sanctioned trail builders.
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12:03 pm
January 31, 2009
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Brian Hammond
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So do the sanctioned builders in your area, and their apprentices etc. still have a freedom to build to their imagination under the building guidelines? Or is it now a slow process now to get approval and build intermidiate / advances features/trails? With the rogue building donr in the past … which was all of the building in this area, it was always good for progression and the builder to express his creative side as things were built fast and with out stoppage.
And now all this stuff gets grand fathered in to the club as it is existing I am guessing. So the good quality free for all building was descent for the sport in the past…. How will it go in the future as far as new stuff? Apply to build etc?
But there is so many trails in most ares that it would be a descent full time effort to keep up with errosion, wood damage, tree fall etc. Just to kkep existing trails minty. So new stuff may not be the biggest concern.
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4:50 pm
February 1, 2009
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gnarlyx
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Hey Brian why don't you come down to our AGM on 18th Feb, let's keep the valley scene tight and connected.
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8:21 pm
February 1, 2009
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Brian Hammond
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I probably could, I'll try and bring down a few people from my area.
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7:14 pm
February 2, 2009
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gnarlyx
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Cool, also post-AGM beers after.
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8:38 pm
February 4, 2009
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GFSR
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Brian Hammond said:
Or is it now a slow process now to get approval and build intermidiate / advances features/trails?
Geez, I hope it never gets to that point. We're in touch with all the established builders in the main biking areas. I'd rather see what comes out of the wood work and then, if need be, beef them up if they don't quite meet the standard.
We haven't been handed the "Book O' Whistler Standards" yet. Things may change when that hits the fan….
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9:20 pm
February 4, 2009
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GFSR
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Changing gears here.
Anyone have any experience with an Alasken Saw Mill? Are we stuck with hauling lumber into our trails?
Last meeting Brant mentioned the use of an Alasken Saw Mill. We all know they have worked well on the north shore but what about the Okanagan?
I've never used an Alasken Saw Mill but I have my doubts. On the north shore they're cutting cedar which has a straight grain which makes it so nice to split. We've only got pine which is a harder wood and has a twisted gain. Splitting pine results in uneven planks that just suck. Also pine doesn't weather as well as cedar. So I can see pine planks cut from a Alasken Saw Mill being weaker and less dependable.
A video of an Alasken Saw Mill in action can be found here:
http://www.toolcenter.com/CHAIN_SAW_MILLS.html
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9:42 am
February 5, 2009
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Brant Lyon
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All totally valid points Ryan. I have brought the use of kiln dried 'processed' lumber up on a few ocassions only because I feel milling our stunts from wind fallen timber is the most environmentally responsible route we could take. We could continue to use the wind fallen trees for stringers and posts, but adopting the use of the portable sawmill for planking and cross bracing.
We are limited to mostly pine in this region but i think through a bit of trial and error we could find a viable way to use the windfall for planking. If durablilty is a concern maybe ripping slightly thicker planking is the way to go? We could even go as far as treating the lumber with borite (which is environmentally friendly) to prolong the life of the stunt. All of this could be done out in the bush or on someones property, it just comes down to the type of equipment we have. What do you guys think?
A little off topic but…
When it comes to saws, mills, and equipment i tend to think big picture. If we do enter into a section 56 it opens up the possiblities for grants and such. Just look at the Okanagan Trail Riders and the equipment they have to manage their area.
If we go that route why not build our own portable milll out of steel? It could be towed behind a truck, quad, side by side, etc. The plans could be modified to accept larger diameter all terrain wheels and have more ground clearance. Of course a high quality milling saw would be required to handle the repeated use.
http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/themill.html
We could aquire a portable chainsaw winch for moving large stringers/posts into place. Partnered with a sack it can be used to haul large rocks and dirt downhill from the build site. The winch can be run off a saw as small as a husky 55; has a 4000lb capacity and can easily be anchored to any tree via a padded chain. A few builders on the shore use them and only have good things to say.
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/119100_lg.jpg
Way, way down the road… a side by side for transporting the equipment and lumber into areas. OTR's have one they use and i think it was donated by a local business, I may be wrong though.
http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/Ranger/2009/700/Crew/Pages/Gallery.aspx
Just a couple crazy ideas Rob C and I have been dreaming up this past winter, but I feel it could all happen in the future with what our goals are here in the Central Okanagan.
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